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78 re(4):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈

2002/6/5(水)01:59 - Jun'ya - 11321 hit(s)

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えー、THML をご覧の方はご存じの通り、インチキ英語で 'the stars look down'
というフレーズを聞いたときの、英語圏の人たちの第一印象はどんなものなのか、
というのを尋ねてみました。以下、該当部分だけを抜粋します:

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まず、'Sweet Miracle' と 'The Stars Look Down' の歌詞に関する話題に
Jeff Hickey 氏が 'The Stars Look Down' の詩は、詩の中の問題が全く解決
されておらず、非常に奇妙で平坦な感じを受ける、と反応していたんです。

そこで、次のようなメイルを出してみました。
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Subject: Re: <THML> Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:06:00 +0900
From: "SUZUKI Jun'ya" <junya@blue.interq.or.jp>
To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: ARENA Internet Mailer 2.1.1 PPC

Hi there,

Here in Japan, we most of Rush fans are not much into English
language. So the JPN press official CDs always have lyric
translated into Japanese. VT JPN press has Japanese lyrics, too.
Although it's that transrations are sometimes NOT great works,
it was HORRIBLE work for this great album, Vapor Trails... :-(

And I, and some Japanese Rush fans start translating Rush lyrics
into Japanese language by ourselves about a couple of weeks ago.
Then, we realized that there're some phrases we cannot get 
understand well, because of the differences of point of views 
between native English speakers and Japanese people. 

So, could you give us suggestion to understand some phrases?

First off, we'd like to know meaning about 'And the stars look 
down' phrase. Some Japanese people feel this like 'The stars *DO*
look down the person who is under the illusion'. The stars, Moon
or Sun are frequently personified in Japanese culture, probably
we feel they're someting like God of naturism. But Jeff said:

At 02.6.3 4:31 PM, Jeff Hickey wrote:
>for... There isn't any answers up in the night sky. Or at least it appears
>that way to someone in that much pain. The stars are just there, as they
>always had been, not caring... flat. 

Is this consensual feeling for you native English speakers?

Please, let us know.

Jun'ya
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すると、まず The Camera Eye の Dave Ward が返事をくれました。
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Subject: Re: <THML> Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 06:04:19 GMT
From: "imac_mafia" <dave_ward@mac.com>
To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster

What Neil is saying in an indirect, poetic way is that when you ask
these types of questions to the sky (or to God)--"Why did this have
to happen? Why me?"--there is never a voice from the sky to give you
an easy answer.

The phrase "and the stars look down" just means the stars just stare
down--like when you ask somebody a question but they just stare at
you silently and ignore your question.

I guess that is pretty much in agreement with what Jeff said, isn't
it?

--Dave @ work
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彼がいうには、このフレーズを聞いたときに感じるのは「星に問いかけても
なにも答えてくれないよ、星はただそこにあるだけだよ」ということなんだ
そうです。

次に、Laurieという、普段アクティブでない方が食い付いて(笑)きて、
ちょっと思いこみ入りまくりのお返事を暮れました(笑)。
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Subject: <THML> Re: Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 05:17:40 -0400
From: Rvndl@aol.com
To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10509

Hi all, 

I haven't commented on VT yet, and have enjoyed everyone's reviews.  I gotta 
chime in on this topic though!  (and yes, I love VT! always something new to 
hear in the songs/)

Anyway, I agree that those lyrics are flat, and take this as having been sung 
flatly on purpose. IMHO, the flatness portrays the grand, romanticized scheme 
we seem to have of the stars and their influence on our live's, ie: the 
saying we all use:  "it's in the stars" ; pre-ordained if you ("free"ly) will 
<grin>, and this vocal flatness makes light of how little time each star 
would,  theoretically of course, be able to spend concerned about an 
individuals tribulations. Yes, they do look and see the song says, but they 
can't or won't always do anything about it. 

I base this loosely on the again romanticized feelings we seem to have that 
stars influence life's destiny, but by flatly stating it, shows they can be 
cold, emotionally detached and hardened over time against individual people's 
problems, since stars also have to (once again, romantically speaking!) look 
upon the grand scheme of the universe and it's well-being, kinda like the 
Overlords in Childhood's End by Arthur Clarke.  (excellent book, eh?!!)  This 
line can also be taken as the stars just distantly observe the reaction an 
event has caused, and is flat in a scientific way. 

Also, stars have a finitely longer life-span than humans do, we're just 
specks in time--and show how small we actually are in this universe. Yes, the 
stars do/(may) keep watch over us, but they're complacant (flat) about how 
they feel about one person's problems vs the problems of the universe.  This 
all seems to me that it might portray Neil's stated disbelief in a higher 
being and purpose to life that so many hold, even though he's agnostic, as 
far as I remember.   This line just might also show his solidification of his 
agnostic belief, ("How could God do this?...  There can't be a God".), and 
makes me feel the lyric came after maybe he tried to reexplore religion or by 
his comtemplation of  the big question of the meaning of life 'Why are we 
here?'.   Having found no answer, the vocals were made flat.  Yes, this is 
all speculation, but it's what I feel when I hear that line sung. 

And, of course, the whole line could just mean that stars are inanimate, and 
don't influence anything.  heh
 
Just my random thoughts, any discussion, either positve or negative on this 
are welcome!  To me, Rush Never~ writes a _single_ note or sings a single 
line in a certain manner without a purpose.  Anyone else notice that? (and 
don't get me started on some of their older stuff and the instrumental 
visualizations I can do down to each note.  I can put quite a few of the 
older songs and epics to visuals in my head, and would love to have the 
ability to turn them into short films placed to the music.  Rush's 
compositions and the visuals they invoked in me are that good, or else I was 
always just that stoned back then in the 70's-early 80's circa.  ;}  ).  

Cheers!  And feel free to pick this apart. I know it might sound out there, 
but provacative Rush content here is a good thing!  (although I still found 
the OT soccer thread entertaining!)

Laurie  
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ちょっとこれはあまり参考にならないな、と思って、とりあえず Dave に
返事を書きました。
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Subject: Re: <THML> Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:01:59 +0900
From: "SUZUKI Jun'ya" <junya@blue.interq.or.jp>
To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: ARENA Internet Mailer 2.1.1 PPC

Thanks for the quick reply, Dave,

I see. The person who work with us said her feeling, "and the stars
look down" means "the stars know everything of your behaviour such as
your illution or bighead, don't you feel the eyeshots from the stars?
(so you should mend your own ways)". If my aspect of Dave's 
explanation is right, her feeling is wrong, right?
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これ、iapetus さんの説を説明してみたんですが、これであってますか?
ただ、「この説は間違ってる?」と聞いてしまったのは間違いだと思って
続けてフォローの投稿をしました。
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Subject: Re: <THML> Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:47:58 +0900
From: "SUZUKI Jun'ya" <junya@blue.interq.or.jp>
To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: ARENA Internet Mailer 2.1.1 PPC

Well, use the words "right/wrong" to understainding lyrics is
*worng* :-P What I'd like to say was, is her feeling not as much 
as native English speaker's first or majore impression of the phase?

We would like to make the Japanese translation lyrics which has 
no missunderstand about idioms and in grammar and native English 
speaker's majore feeling. If we can make such ones, Japanese
peoples can get their own feeling about the lyrics.

Regards,

Jun'ya
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で、やっと昼過ぎになった向こうから、powerwindows の Eric が反応して
くれました。
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Subject: Re: <THML> Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:41:25 GMT
From: "pwrwindows" <pwrwindows@yahoo.com>
To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster

You are correct, her interpretation of the lyrics is not how I 
interpret them.  She is being misled by Neil's use of the words "look 
down" in the phrase "the stars look down".  It was not meant to give 
them consciousness, he was simply saying that they are 
simply "there", as they were before he asked his questions.  To 
expand on what has been said before, Neil is conveying that he is 
searching for answers, asking the question "What are you [i.e. God, 
fate, etc] trying to do?", but there is "no reply".  As he looks up 
towards "heaven" for answers, all he sees are the stars.  

Eric
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ということで、少なくとも Eric もこのフレーズを聞いたときに「星*が*
見下ろしている」という聞こえ方はしない、ということだそうです。'look 
down' という部分を取り間違えてはいけない、とも言ってます。「星はただ
そこにあるのみ」という感じが英語圏の方々の主要な印象のようですね。

また、そもそも僕がこの件を尋ねてみようと思ったきっかけを作ってくれた
Jeff からも反応がありました。
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Subject: RE: <THML> Lyrics
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:10:23 -0400
From: Jeff Hickey <jhickey@pmirope.com>
To: "'thmleng@yahoogroups.com'" <thmleng@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: thmleng@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)

Thanks everyone for expanding on my simple comments. Not everyone in the
Western world thinks as Neil does. I think we all may look to the heavens
for answers when your world is suddenly torn out from under you. Some find
answers and some do not. In a situation like Neil was in, it's impossible to
say where his mind was, but it seems like he didn't find the answers he was
looking for. "What is the meaning of this?". Well... who on Earth could tell
you why something that tragic happened? And if not on Earth, then some
celestial being that knows all the answers, knows your pain, knows what is
best... Of course we all have to figure this out on our own. It sounds like
Neil has done some soul searching and come to his own conclusions (although
the word conclusion signifies an end, which is probably not the case). I,
myself DO believe that there are answers to be found, that religion plays an
important part of recovery, but "to each their own"... I'm trying to steer
clear of any religious discussions other than what directly relates to the
lyrics, and I hope this topic doesn't lead to that. Thanks again.
 
Jeff.....         (Vesper2112)
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つまり、詩を書いた Neil のことを考えてみれば、「こんな酷いことが
何故僕に降りかかるんだ」という問いを天に向かって発したとしても、
結局なんの回答も得られなかったんじゃないか、それを詩にしたんじゃ
ないか、という感じです。確かにそれは少し考えていたんですが、向こうの
人もそう考えているんですね。Jeff は「それでもどこかにきっと求める
答えはあるはずだけれど‥‥」という感想も言ってくれています。

ということで、今のところは、ですが、英語圏の人にとってこのフレーズは
「星はただそこに存在するのみで、地上からの問いに答えてはくれない」
という意味に取れるそうです。

また、最初の Jeff の投稿の中には「'What is the meaning of this?'/
'What are you trying to do?'/ 'Was it something I said?'/' Some-
thing you'd like me to do?'」という部分のエモーショナルな歌い方に
対して、'And the stars look down' の部分が非常に平坦な歌い方になって
いるのも、やはり「星はただそこにあるだけ」ということを強調している
ように聴こえる、と言っていました。これも、確かに言われてみればそう
感じられます。

ということで、'and the stars look down' の訳は「星はただ見下ろす
のみ」、解釈は上記のような感じ、ということでよろしいでしょうか。
#この後 THML で別の意見が盛り上がる可能性は低そうですし。

〔ツリー構成〕

【5】 The Stars Look Down: オリジナル英詞 2002/5/24(金)21:00 Jun'ya (895)
┣【14】 re(1):The Stars Look Down: 対訳 ver.0.1 2002/5/24(金)22:06 Jun'ya (2002)
┣【53】 re(2):The Stars Look Down: 対訳 ver.0.1 2002/5/27(月)01:52 テツ (1346)
┣【58】 re(3):The Stars Look Down: 対訳 ver.0.1 2002/5/28(火)18:10 Jun'ya (1714)
┣【64】 re(2):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/5/29(水)22:35 iapetus (831)
┣【67】 re(3):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/5/30(木)23:42 Jun'ya (538)
┣【78】 re(4):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/6/5(水)01:59 Jun'ya (12786)
┣【79】 re(5):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/6/5(水)12:58 Sarie (961)
┣【83】 re(5):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/6/6(木)00:27 iapetus (792)
┣【84】 re(6):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/6/7(金)01:30 Jun'ya (2140)
┣【101】 re(7):The Stars Look Down: 対訳:the stars look downの解釈 2002/6/24(月)04:09 weinrib (1226)
┣【81】 ()
┣【91】 re(3):The Stars Look Down: 対訳 ver.0.1: a lifetime ago 2002/6/9(日)10:57 Sarie (1369)
┣【100】 re(4):The Stars Look Down: 対訳 ver.0.1: a lifetime ago 2002/6/24(月)04:06 weinrib (1403)

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